Podcast: There’s Good News at Rock Bottom (Ray Ortlund)

This text is a part of the The Crossway Podcast collection.

There Is No Rock Backside Too Deep for Jesus

On this episode, Ray Ortlund talks by way of what it means when God says he dwells not solely within the excessive and holy place but additionally method down low with these at all-time low. Ray shares how even in betrayal, loneliness, feeling trapped in sin, or demise, God is ready there with open arms.

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Subjects Addressed in This Interview:

Matt Tully
Ray, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me once more on The Crossway Podcast.

Ray Ortlund
Thanks, Matt. It’s a privilege to be with you.

Matt Tully
Ray, you write on this new e-book that you just’ve written, a e-book that, because the title suggests, is making an attempt to fulfill individuals once they’re at their lowest, when their life has taken a flip that has perhaps caught them without warning and so they simply really feel like they’re at their wits finish. And also you write within the e-book that there are various methods for us in our lives to truly hit all-time low. And I’m wondering should you might simply begin us off by telling us what that was like for you. Have you ever ever hit all-time low? What did that seem like?

Ray Ortlund
I feel it’s inevitable. In the end, one thing actually unhealthy comes and finds us. For me, it’s arduous to speak about it, Matt, as a result of it stays unresolved, and it’s nonetheless heartbreaking, and I don’t wish to embarrass anyone. However I used to be amongst individuals who made guarantees and didn’t hold their guarantees. So I put my belief of their pledges and assurances. I feel I ought to have executed that, as I stand earlier than the Lord, however they didn’t hold their finish of the cut price, and all of it fell aside, and it was very expensive. And it shook me to my core. My dad and mom and my Sunday college lecturers and so forth, from the start of my life, taught me God loves you. And what then occurred in that unlucky expertise was executed within the title of Christ. So I really had the terrifying thought, Have I been incorrect all these years? Possibly the reality of my existence is that God hates my guts. That will clarify the whole lot. It might make sense. Now, I discovered quickly sufficient that I used to be proper the primary time. God does love me. However then I had to return and rebuild the whole lot from the very deepest foundations. I couldn’t return to my Christianity, as I had navigated it and understood it previous to that heartache, and simply kind of tweak that, improve that, enhance that. It was too surprising. It was too devastating. I needed to rethink from the very deepest foundations. And that was a serious turnaround in my life. It was the start of my actual ministry and the start of a profound happiness that I didn’t expertise previous to that. So I’m dwelling proof, Matt, that the steadfast love of the Lord endures perpetually.

Matt Tully
It’s simply wonderful. You hear anybody who’s been by way of profound struggling of some form will type of say the identical factor, that there’s this readability that may come. There’s a spotlight and even a recognition that issues that perhaps you thought have been okay, issues that appeared advantageous or wholesome, perhaps weren’t as wholesome as you as soon as believed they have been. Why is it that struggling and ache—whether or not it’s the ache of betrayal, like perhaps what you have been speaking about, or illness, or another simply hardship that comes at us—why does that are likely to have such a clarifying energy in our lives?

Ray Ortlund
That’s a profound query, Matt. I want I had a greater reply for you, however let me simply take a stab at it. I feel we launch into life with the idea that what we’re going to do is accumulate increasingly more. And I don’t imply simply cash and wealth and issues, however we’re going to, as we undergo life, accumulate extra credibility and extra assurance and extra confidence and extra expertise and so forth. And we don’t understand that we don’t actually get traction for the nice issues in life by gaining increasingly more, however we get traction by dropping increasingly more. And we don’t go there till we’re pressured to by circumstances, once we’re pressured into shedding assumptions, beliefs, expectations, and so forth which have simply appeared apparent our entire lives. After we lastly let go of that and lose it, then we’ve that vital aha second when the dwelling Christ turns into extra actual—existentially actual—than ever earlier than. And that actually is the purpose. It’s not a philosophical query. It’s not even a psychological query. It’s a matter of struggling the lack of all issues that I’ll acquire Christ (Phil. 3).

Matt Tully
You write within the e-book that there’s no all-time low that’s too deep for Jesus. And that’s the primary message, primarily, of the e-book is (spoiler alert) Jesus is there once we hit all-time low, and that’s the place he does his greatest work for us. However I might think about any person listening to that remark, listening to what you’ve mentioned even up to now, and to these of us who’ve been Christians for a very long time, who’ve been within the church perhaps all our lives, who’ve walked with the Lord, a press release like that may simply type of sound a bit trite. It might sound a bit cliched. In fact Jesus meets us there. We’ve heard that. And it may be, if we’re sincere with ourselves, it may be one thing that within the summary doesn’t perhaps sound all that comforting. It doesn’t appear that out of the extraordinary. It simply appears acquainted. So, once more, is that one thing that you’d you say you’ve come to grasp in a deeper method? You at all times would have mentioned that Christ meets us in our lowest factors, however is there one thing about going by way of it that you just suppose has helped you to see that extra clearly or extra vibrantly?

Ray Ortlund
Didn’t C. S. Lewis say that ache is God’s megaphone to a deaf world? That’s true for me, Matt. I’ve liked the Lord so long as I can bear in mind. That’s an enormous blessing. I’m not disparaging that in any respect. I’m not taking something away from his look after me all these a few years rising up. However the different evening, Jani and I have been watching Father of the Bride. Are you aware that film?

Matt Tully
Oh yeah. Traditional.

Ray Ortlund
The house the place that film is filmed was my neighborhood in California. That house was about three blocks away from our place, and so the road that you just see there, I walked that avenue each day to high school. I grew up in that world in a wholesome household and a wholesome church. I simply thought that is regular, common actuality for everyone. I had no concept. Now, once more, I’m so grateful to God for each method he blessed me all these years. However I used to be simply saying to a good friend this morning at breakfast that for me, personally, for a lot too lengthy as a pastor, I didn’t actually perceive what individuals have been lugging into church each Sunday. The questions, the fears, the regrets, the heartache, and so forth. And I’m so grateful that I hit all-time low. I lastly started to grasp what 99 % of the human race is experiencing at this second proper now. And so they’re entered into my coronary heart this fierce sense of look after them, respect for them. I wish to shield them. I wish to present a secure place for them to return in, take a deep breath, uncover hope, rethink life, and so forth. I’m very earnest that they won’t be mistreated. And so in Nashville at Emanuel Church, we used to have what we known as the Emanuel mantra. We needed to speak that it is a church anyone can come to, and it is a Christian church for individuals who stink at Christianity. And we known as it the Emanuel mantra. It was quite simple: One, I’m an entire fool. Two, my future is extremely vibrant. Three, anyone can get in on this. I used to say that from the entrance, as a result of I needed to speak to people who find themselves simply barely in a position to crawl into church, “You don’t should serve. You don’t should donate. If all you are able to do is simply come and sit and heal, you’re so welcome right here.” That, I feel, is what this verse in Isaiah is speaking about, that the Excessive and Holy One dwells among the many devastated, the crushed, the contrite, and the lowly.

Matt Tully
Let’s go there, Ray. Isaiah 57:15 is that this verse. It’s a key verse for you and for this entire e-book. And I’m wondering if you can begin off by studying it aloud for us, after which clarify why you say it has these therapeutic powers.

Ray Ortlund
In a method, that is the Christian gospel in a single verse. It doesn’t explicitly point out the cross, however that is the hope and the excellent news of God’s grace for the undeserving in a single verse. “For thus says the One who’s excessive and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose title is Holy: ‘I dwell within the excessive and holy place, and in addition with him who’s of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the guts of the contrite.’” So once we actually need assistance, when life isn’t regular, once we are terrified, the whole lot’s falling aside, the place do go to seek out God? Effectively, that verse says God dwells, he lingers in, retains an tackle at two locations. One, method up excessive. It says, “I dwell within the excessive and holy place.” However we are able to’t go there. And he additionally dwells method down low among the many lowly and the crushed and the contrite. So God dwells up on this heavenly place with angelic beings and in addition method down on the backside of human society with devastated, terrified, exhausted people who find themselves questioning in the event that they also have a future anymore. And in between these two extremes—method up excessive, method down low—is a social house that I name the mushy center. Now, the mushy center is the place the children are above common, the profession is on observe, we have the funds for to maintain numerous hassle out and numerous consolation in, and “church” is a weekend choice for upgrading our already fairly good life to a fair higher life. And the Jesus in that “church” is the chaplain to the mushy center. And he by no means judges. He’s grateful to have our consideration for an entire hour on a Sunday morning. He by no means disagrees with us, and he’s simply there for us. You already know what I imply? Now, there’s numerous so-called Christianity like that. Some church buildings cater to the mushy center. The issue is that it’s simply more durable to seek out the Lord there. Now, God is current in every single place, however he’s not current in the identical method in every single place. And when he says in Isaiah 57:15, “I dwell within the excessive and holy place, and I dwell down among the many crushed and lowly,” meaning he manifests and divulges himself, provides himself, strikes shut in these two locations—method up excessive and method down low. In order that’s the place we go to seek out God.

Matt Tully
What are a number of the different warning indicators? If somebody’s listening proper now and so they don’t wish to be within the mushy center, they don’t wish to be content material with a passive, a bit bit distant, uninterested type of relationship with God, what are a number of the warning indicators that they need to be in their very own life to evaluate, “Am I snug in this type of Christianity?”

Ray Ortlund
One indicator can be how do I understand people who find themselves devastated? Do I have a look at them with disdain? Do I have a look at them and suppose, Effectively, I will not be excellent, however I’ve by no means sunk that low. If I regard people who find themselves struggling and struggling as beneath me, nicely, Jesus advised the parable in regards to the two males who went as much as the temple to hope. And one, he says, stood there and mentioned, “God, I thanks. I do all these good issues, and I’m not like that man over there.” Now, this man, the Pharisee, was Reformed. He mentioned, “God, I thanks. I provide you with all of the glory that I’m superior.” And the opposite man simply mainly crawled in on his arms and knees and mentioned, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” And Jesus mentioned that man went house justified. The parable begins, “And Jesus advised this parable to those that trusted in themselves that they’re righteous and despised others.” These two at all times go collectively—one’s personal complacency and self-admiration with disparaging others. So perceiving others in a condescending method, wanting down on them—that’s a reasonably critical indicator I is perhaps caught within the mushy center.

Matt Tully
I feel it is a useful nuance to what you’re saying, as a result of I feel somebody might hear what you’ve mentioned in regards to the mushy center and suppose, Effectively, does that simply imply if there are good issues moving into my life, if my life isn’t in disaster proper now, does that imply I’m essentially there? Nevertheless it looks as if the true emphasis right here is even how we understand ourselves and the way we understand God and our want for God. Will we see him as type of an optionally available add-on, or will we see that each day I desperately want his grace in my life?

Ray Ortlund
Sure. Thanks, Matt. That’s an incredible level. The Lord is so form to us. He provides so many good presents. Proper now I’m doing a little work in Ecclesiastes, and I’m actually struck at how usually Solomon makes use of the phrase “give” when he describes what God does. God provides pleasure. God provides work. We’re simply being showered together with his good presents each day, and we reward and thank his holy title for each single one. And what if life have been countless disaster and depth? It might be unsustainable. It might crush us. I’m simply saying, inevitably, there comes a time when the whole lot falls aside and we’ve to rethink the whole lot. And what I’m saying is that’s not a disaster, that’s not really a catastrophe. That’s a breakthrough, by God’s grace. And that’s when he turns into extra actual than ever earlier than. And at the same time as we kind of recuperate and he graciously places his hand below our chin up above the floor of the water, we start to breathe once more and we start to hope once more. We take with us, from then on, a extra vivid coronary heart consciousness of his nearness, his care, his gentleness, his humility, his sensitivity, his thoughtfulness, his endurance. Matt, Jani and I spent a day with David Powlison, the biblical counselor—what an expensive, valuable man he was—again in Philadelphia, proper in the course of our all-time low. And it was only a nice day. And a number of other years later, I noticed David at an occasion and he mentioned, “Ray, how are you doing with all that?” And I mentioned, “David, I’m embarrassed to confess to you ways a lot it nonetheless bothers me and type of eats at me.” And he mentioned, “Ray, God is affected person.” Oh, these three phrases! God is affected person. Matt, he’s not you and me with a stopwatch in his hand. Click on. “Okay, come on. Let’s see some progress right here. What are you ready for?” It’s not like that. The place would we be with out the endurance of God? I don’t change shortly. I don’t change simply. However God is affected person, and once we go to that place of deep sorrow and loss and heartache, he’s not solely there; he’s there with open arms.

Matt Tully
Ray, you talked about your story of all-time low, which is perhaps within the broad class of betrayal. And that’s one of many classes that you just tackle within the e-book. You hit on a number of different ways in which we are able to typically hit all-time low. I’m wondering should you might simply stroll us by way of these. The following one that you just spotlight is once we really feel trapped by our sin. Communicate a bit bit to the ways in which God can use these emotions to make himself actual to us.

Ray Ortlund
I overlook which of our Puritan fathers it was, however he mentioned it so nicely. “Devil reveals the bait, however he hides the hook.” And everyone knows precisely what he’s speaking about. We fall for a temptation, we’re stressed—Following Jesus is so confining. Why can’t I feel for myself? Why can’t I discover my choices? After which we go do one thing actually reckless. After which we discover it will get its hooks into us. It’s simple to get in and arduous to get out. Each single one in every of us understands that. Jesus mentioned, “He who sins is a slave to sin.” It will get an influence over us and inevitably, we go there. After we’re those who do the betraying, nicely, thank God for brick partitions that we run into, the place we lastly should face ourselves and personal up and simply fall earlier than the Lord—and maybe others—and confess our sins. James 5:16: “Due to this fact confess your sins to 1 one other and pray for each other that you could be be healed.” The Roman Catholic Church has confession as an ordinance within the formal constructions of their ministry. I feel James 5:16 is speaking about one thing way more profound, however we Protestants, to whom will we confess our sins? And it says confess your sins to 1 one other. So that is mutual. There’s a transparency in actual Christianity. After which it says, “Pray for each other that you could be be healed.” That’s the place therapeutic is discovered. After we’re trapped in our personal sins, confession and prayer with Christian brothers and sisters, as is acceptable, nonetheless that is perhaps acceptable in any given relationship.

Matt Tully
I do know that’s one thing that you just and your church have executed for a very long time very deliberately, however you’re proper, it’s one thing that sounds good in principle, however we battle to truly try this in our lives. One other one of many classes of hitting all-time low that you just tackle is loneliness. And loneliness is a kind of struggles that simply by definition, it’s one thing that we regularly battle with alone. After we don’t have that neighborhood, that’s what it’s. It’s the dearth of true neighborhood. So how does God meet us if we’re feeling alone?

Ray Ortlund
Solitary confinement is the worst type of punishment. And it’s actually, actually arduous to bear. So many individuals in our nation at this time say they haven’t any good friend. They’re lonely. {Our relationships} and neighborhood teams and establishments that used to deliver us collectively when America was kind of a extra conventional tradition, they’ve damaged down. And we’re all conscious of it. All of us endure the consequences. My dad used to say, and I like how he mentioned this, he mentioned, “Take a threat, and go give your coronary heart away.” I might say to anybody who’s lonely, go searching and ask your self (you possibly can pray about it as nicely, after all), Who do I respect? Who do I belief? And go have espresso with that particular person. Go stick your neck out. Open your coronary heart and say, “You already know, I would like to go to a deeper place with some trusted associates. And I’m wondering if we might put collectively one thing that perhaps we might attempt it for 3 months and see the way it works. We might get collectively for espresso each different week or one thing like that, perhaps learn some Scripture. And I might love the privilege of turning into weak and clear with you. Do you wish to take into consideration that? May we contemplate that?” Now, that’s a scary step to take. Okay, nicely, let’s take it. Let’s not let concern maintain us again. In Hamlet, outdated Polonius says to his son, as I recall, about associates, “And people associates thou hast, and their adoption tried.” In different phrases, you’ve chosen them as associates, they’ve been examined, they’ve been discovered devoted. “And people associates thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of metal.” Okay, right here’s a aim for each single one in every of us for the remainder of our lives. We’ll cease dropping associates. We’ll regain misplaced associates. We’ll make new associates, and there will probably be much less loneliness on this world.

Matt Tully
A remaining class that you just take care of, which is the final word enemy right here that all of us face sooner or later, is demise itself. And I’m wondering if there’s somebody even listening proper now who’s dealing with demise, whether or not it’s their very own demise—they’ve simply acquired some prognosis or they’ve one thing that’s inevitably main in a sure course—or perhaps they’ve a liked one which has not too long ago handed away, and so they’re simply wrestling with the fact of demise. It’s a actuality that we so usually push away from our consciousness till it turns into unattainable to disregard. What does God say to us within the face of that demise?

Ray Ortlund
Matt, that’s such a poignant query. Thanks for asking that. I learn someplace that again within the Victorian days of the nineteenth century, individuals talked frankly about demise, however intercourse was the taboo topic. Now we have flipped that. We by no means cease speaking about intercourse, however demise, we don’t know. After which once we do go to a funeral, it’s not known as a funeral. It’s known as a celebration of life, and it’s kind of chipper and upbeat. Effectively, okay, I perceive in a method what that’s about, however they’re going to name my funeral a funeral, Matt. I’m ensuring of that.

Matt Tully
Why?

Ray Ortlund
A good friend the opposite day known as me a demise non-avoidant particular person.

Matt Tully
That’s an fascinating praise, I suppose.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah, I feel it was meant to be, really. As a result of, brother, if Christ is risen, and we’re following him into resurrection immortality, we are able to cease avoiding, fearing, ignoring demise. We are able to have a look at it proper within the face and say to demise, “You sorry loser! You haven’t any declare on me in any respect. You suppose you’re going to win? Effectively, I’m going to point out you. I’m going to bounce on your grave.” We ought to be cheerfully defiant of demise. And I’m pondering of John 21, when Jesus speaks to Peter. Jesus describes to Peter how he’s going to die. I want the Lord would do that for me. I might be very to know upfront. However he says that to him. That is in John chapter 21:9: “This he mentioned to point out by what sort of demise he was to glorify God.” Now, right here’s why I like that a lot, and it’s true for each Christian, not simply Peter. When Peter died, he didn’t simply die; he glorified God. Matt, you and I, until the Lord comes again first, there’s going to return a day once we die. Now we have a birthday, we’ve a demise day. We all know our birthday, we don’t know our demise day, however God has that day circled on his calendar for me and for you and for everybody listening. And when that day comes and we are able to now not look after ourselves, we are able to now not breathe, and our physique shuts down, in that second, we will probably be glorifying God. How? Effectively, John, the creator, says, “And after saying this, Jesus mentioned to Peter, ‘Observe me.’” Now, I like the belief, Matt, that you just and I don’t should orchestrate how we die in order that we be certain that our demise glorifies God. All we do is at this time, at this second, observe Jesus. After which tomorrow, observe Jesus. After which the day after that, observe Jesus. He’ll deal with the whole lot. He’ll lead us to a demise that may glorify God. For instance, and that is really fairly spectacular, my very own dad. The person was a saint. He had pulmonary fibrosis. His lungs grew to become hardened and kind of leathery, and so they didn’t course of oxygen nicely, so he usually felt as if he was underwater, combating for breath, particularly if he exerted himself. And I don’t know the way this occurred, however one time mother discovered him on the ground of their house in California. He had collapsed, combating for breath. Mother, after all, was so distressed. She was there with him. And between gulping down some air, dad mentioned to my mother, “No, Anne, no. It is a present. It’s a present.” Dad trusted God and he adopted Christ, even when Christ led him into pulmonary fibrosis. And he obtained it not as a curse however as a present. After which the day he died, in 2007, the household gathered there at his bedside, they learn Scripture, they sang hymns, dad gave a phrase of patriarchal blessing to the household, and died. Now, Matt, I don’t know if I’m going to have consciousness to talk to Jani and my youngsters. Possibly I’ll die in a automobile accident. I don’t know. God decides that. However what we all know from John 21 is that if we’ll observe Jesus, he’ll lead us not solely into every day however to that remaining day. And nonetheless it goes down for me, nonetheless it goes down for you and each listener, a Christian following Jesus doesn’t simply die, however glorifies God. In reality, again in I can’t bear in mind which chapter it’s—I feel Deuteronomy 32—God says to Moses, “Moses, I would like you to go up on that mountain there and die and be gathered to your individuals.” What a exceptional command. God’s going to provide me that command sometime, and also you, and each listener. And that signifies that whenever you and I die, we will probably be obeying God. Our final second on this mortal world will probably be a second of great obedience, faithfulness, consecration. After which God mentioned to Moses, “Die and be gathered to your individuals.” The Apostle’s Creed refers back to the communion of saints. Matt, you’ve acquired that image of Martin Luther up behind you there in your research. And Matt, whenever you stroll into heaven, it might be that there you’ll be and you will notice the Lord. Possibly he’ll be fifteen ft away, and he’ll have a look at you, and you’ll have a look at him, and he’ll smile at you. And he would possibly provide you with an incredible massive bear hug. He’ll say, “Welcome.” After which all these different individuals, the communion of saints, you’ll be gathered to your individuals. Martin Luther would possibly provide you with an incredible massive, vigorous handshake and invite you right into a dialog about justification by religion alone! It’s simply going to be great. And we’re one heartbeat away from that wonderful everlasting welcome.

Matt Tully
I like that on the finish of that chapter on dying, you share a bit anecdote from World Warfare II, the place a newspaper reporter requested C. S. Lewis what he would do if the German Luftwaffe dropped a bomb on him in England. And clearly, England knew what it was wish to be bombed by Germany. London was bombed. And Lewis had this unimaginable little line in response. I’m wondering should you might inform us what he mentioned.

Ray Ortlund
It was an Australian journalist, and the British knew that the Germans have been engaged on the atomic bomb. So it was not simply any outdated bomb; it was the massive one. And Lewis mentioned, “If I see that bomb heading straight for me, I’m going to stay out my tongue at it and say, ‘Poo! You’re only a bomb. I’m an immortal soul!’” I like that!

Matt Tully
That’s simply wonderful. Nevertheless it has that perspective. It’s not that demise is relativized for a Christian. We perceive its limits. It has an influence over us, nevertheless it’s a restricted energy. It’s an influence that will probably be undone within the final day. And that’s such an unimaginable, unimaginable factor for us to carry on to as we face no matter our all-time low is perhaps, that finally will probably be undone by our Lord.

Ray Ortlund
I feel the Lord is looking us to face not solely demise, however all of the sufferings that lead as much as it. To face our sufferings and advancing age, decrepitude, damage, and so forth—face all of it with a cheerful defiance. Demise will take us out, however at each step alongside the best way, we prevail by not being intimidated and never being disheartened, however by rejoicing in Christ each step of the best way. In reality, Matt, right here’s how we are able to get up each day by God’s grace for his glory: we’re going to go give the satan a extremely unhealthy day, and we’re going to have enjoyable doing it, and we’re going to glorify Christ. And that doesn’t imply that we’re glowing, excellent Christians. Now we have many weaknesses and lots of failings. However even that we provide to Christ cheerfully. He’s our all-sufficient Savior. Martin Luther, once more, he’s taught me greater than anybody else about cheerful defiance as a result of Jesus is our all-sufficient Savior. Jesus loves and saves sinners, Matt. Let’s admit it. If we would like in on Jesus, we’ve acquired to be, as Isaiah says, among the many contrite and lowly.

Matt Tully
Ray, to shut this out right here, I’m wondering should you would possibly contemplate praying for these of us who’re listening, however particularly for the one who perhaps does discover him or herself on this all-time low spot, no matter it is perhaps. Possibly it’s that betrayal. Possibly it’s their very own sin, the place they only really feel fully trapped. Or perhaps it’s some type of illness or sickness, some bodily infirmity that they will’t escape. I’m wondering should you would pray to shut us, that they’d perceive what Christ means to them proper now.

Ray Ortlund
Thanks for that. It’s a really delicate suggestion. So many individuals are struggling proper now, struggling deeply. Lord Jesus Christ, thanks for being the Lord of the lowly. You dwell in a excessive and holy place, but additionally down right here with us at our lowest, with us at our worst. You aren’t aloof. You’re not above all of it. You’re not too busy for individuals like us. However you’re down amongst us proper right here, proper now. So we pray for everybody listening. Lord, give us an consciousness—an existential, real-time consciousness—of your nearness to us at this very second. Your coronary heart for us, your look after us, your presence. We’re so grateful that we’re not God forsaken. So grateful in your presence, your favor, your advocacy, your cross, your Spirit, your phrase. Now, Lord, no matter our subsequent step is, assist us to take that step proper now. Give us that grace, Lord. Thanks. In Jesus’s title, Amen.

Matt Tully
Amen. Thanks, Ray, for talking with us at this time.

Ray Ortlund
Oh, it’s a privilege. Thanks, Matt.

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