The California Democrat explains why, throughout her 25 years in Congress, it was necessary for her “to disrupt and dismantle and construct one thing that’s equitable and simply and proper.”
Barbara Lee began out as a Bay Space radical who didn’t imagine that voting might make a distinction in individuals’s lives. Shirley Chisholm set her straight, reminding the younger Black girl from California that these in energy most popular that advocates for financial and social and racial justice disengage from the electoral course of. So Lee engaged, turning into a Chisholm delegate to the 1972 Democratic Nationwide Conference, an aide to California’s legendary Democratic US Consultant Ron Dellums, and, in 1999, Dellums’s replacement within the Home. Two years later, she solid the only vote towards authorizing President George W. Bush’s endlessly wars. She has remained a hero to peace activists since she solid that vote. However Lee’s epic tenure in Congress—now coming to a conclusion after 25 years—has seen her lead on points together with abortion rights, the worldwide combat towards AIDS, reframing US international coverage, and efforts to chop the Pentagon finances to fund human wants. In early November, simply days earlier than the election, she talked with The Nation about her time in Congress and the continued wrestle for peace and justice. This interview has been calmly edited for size and continuity.
—John Nichols
JN: You have got served with 5 presidents, voted on 1000’s of payments, and took part in too many debates and committee hearings to depend. What would you like your time in Congress to be remembered for?
BL: Hopefully, that I pushed the envelope to the purpose the place members of Congress who didn’t speak about poverty—and about lifting individuals out of poverty—now perceive that now we have to concentrate on the poor and the working poor. And now we have to concentrate on lifting individuals out of poverty. I’m telling you, that was an enormous, heavy raise for me. And I lastly was in a position to get the Poverty and Alternative Process Drive established [in 2013]. I’m the chair, and we’ve had over 100 members be part of. We’ve led the efforts on the kid tax credit score and different points, working with Bishop [William] Barber and the Poor Folks’s Marketing campaign. I simply pushed, pushed, pushed, they usually got here and testified earlier than the Funds Committee, Bishop Barber did. Now it’s OK to make use of the P-word—“poor.”
Then the opposite factor that I’m actually pleased with, and that I hope individuals will bear in mind, is pushing the envelope on the Pentagon finances. You understand, yearly, not voting for it and speaking about why we have to cut back protection spending and put extra into home spending—how we have to assist our troops on the similar time that we’re ensuring that the military-industrial complicated and the army contractors cease scamming the taxpayers. The Pentagon is the one company that hadn’t been audited, John. So I labored with a number of Republicans within the Home to audit the Pentagon. And no person had performed that earlier than. So we acquired the Pentagon audited.
JN: That’s one thing lots of people don’t find out about you—you’ve typically made alliances with Republicans on surprising points?
BL: The place there’s widespread floor, I’ve been in a position to determine it out. The underside line is, the Pentagon has been audited six occasions, and it has failed every single audit. I hope individuals keep in mind that.
JN: You’ll even be remembered on your work on PEPFAR, the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Reduction, a world well being initiative to fund HIV and AIDS remedy and prevention.
BL: Sure, working with George W. Bush, Henry Hyde, and the actually conservative members of Congress to develop the Initiative for International AIDS, the International Belief Fund, PEPFAR, and the Workplace of Weak Youngsters—all the problems that nobody was coping with earlier than [Lee and a few others started focusing on them in Congress]. I’m actually pleased with the truth that, regardless that we don’t get a number of consideration on it, we’ve saved 25 million lives and are attempting to get to the aim of [ending AIDS by 2030].
JN: You bought your introduction to Congress as a longtime aide to US Consultant Ron Dellums, an anti-apartheid campaigner who sought to reframe US international coverage on a bunch of points and labored to chop Pentagon budgets. He was a boss and a mentor.
BL: Sure, he influenced me and taught me. He was a mentor to me in lots of, some ways. To start with, he actually confirmed by instance. In my working for him, there have been only a few senior employees members on Capitol Hill who had been Black ladies. He used to say that he was a feminist. He employed me to move up his workplace, and that stated one thing about Ron proper there. Secondly, he was one who at all times insisted that we don’t have a look at choices and proposals that we make for him by a political lens. He at all times stated, “Ask your self only one query: Is it the best factor to do?” That’s on casework within the district, which I delight myself on as a social employee. But in addition on laws. He stated, “If that is the best factor to do, then do it.” And that was an necessary lesson: Don’t squirm within the wind concerning the politics of one thing. You’ll determine that out later. If it’s proper, go on and do it.
JN: Have been you occupied with that counsel while you voted towards the authorization of the usage of army pressure in September 2001?
BL: I known as Ron and talked to him. He stated, “I’m not going to let you know what the best or flawed vote is as a result of this can be a very troublesome vote for you, however I’m going to provide the professionals and cons, and then you definately make up your individual resolution.” He stated, “You’re a social employee.” I’ve my MSW, and he had an MSW. So we talked about choices which might be made when persons are very emotional, and the way they could possibly be the flawed choices primarily based on our information of human nature and human habits. Then we talked about the truth that everybody was grieving within the nation, and other people had been in mourning. And while you’re grieving and in mourning, that’s not when you can also make good choices—it’s important to wait till you’ll be able to present a bit area so that you may be rational and reply appropriately to no matter is happening.
JN: I do know that he additionally argued that, typically, while you take a lonely stance, individuals come to acknowledge that you simply had been proper, and be part of you. That’s encouraging, however, finally, you ended up standing by yourself in opposition to a rush to struggle.
BL: I wasn’t positive how I used to be going to vote, as a result of I attempted to get them to slender the authorization, to alter it. And there have been different members who knew that it was unhealthy. It was overly broad: 60 phrases that gave away Congress’s [authority] to the manager department, to any president. So different members knew that. Nevertheless it was that second in time the place it was so laborious due to the grief and the anger—the burden was actually heavy—and so Ron and I talked. I talked with my pastor and a few different individuals. I additionally talked to Marcus Raskin [of the Institute for Policy Studies], to my children, to my mom and my father, who was a army officer—and I wasn’t positive. However the [deciding] second, it was within the church, the place Bishop Nathan Baxter, who was the pinnacle of the Nationwide Cathedral, on the memorial service stated, “As we act, allow us to not turn out to be the evil that we deplore.” That was once I was settled with voting “no.”
JN: Historical past will file that you simply had been keen to face alone for peace. It’s also true that, by a lot of your time in Congress, Democrats had been within the minority, and also you had been in a smaller minority as a dedicated progressive. However you had been nonetheless in a position to construct alliances, to get issues performed. Why is that so?
BL: When you’re Black in America, and in case you’re a lady in America, please, you bought to determine it out.
Present Difficulty
Right here’s a narrative I can let you know: After I lived in England [as a young woman], I noticed then that America had tricked me into considering I used to be a minority. I met individuals from the Center East, from Africa, from the Caribbean who seemed like me, and I noticed then that I used to be actually a part of the world majority. So I by no means accepted a minority standing once more after I got here again from England. Whether or not we’re politically within the minority or whether or not racially I’m within the minority, that mentality of believing I’m a minority simply doesn’t exist.
JN: You took that consciousness to Congress. You additionally took a strategic sense about how you can negotiate as a progressive.
BL: When you’re an actual progressive, you’ve got to stake out the progressive place, as a result of the best wing goes to stake out their territory and their place. And in case you’re a progressive and also you’re coping with a right-winger, [you have to do the same thing]. I’m telling you, John, in case you begin within the center as a reasonable, you don’t have anyplace to go, so you find yourself caving to the best wing.
JN: That willingness to stake out a powerful place is one thing we see with the brand new era of younger ladies who are actually in Congress. You have got labored with lots of them, particularly Massachusetts Consultant Ayanna Pressley, on abortion rights points. So that you’ve gotten allies for these progressive fights, proper?
BL: I’ve seen loads change. They name me “OG”—OG Lee. If somebody didn’t know what “OG” meant, I stated, “Look, it’s not ‘authentic genius.’ It’s ‘authentic gangster,’ proper?” And I find it irresistible, as a result of that’s who I’m. I imply, I couldn’t play by these guidelines that had been arrange, except they had been simply and truthful and inclusive. And so it’s important to be type of a gangster to bust by some of these items. And I’m actually pleased with these new members, as a result of while you have a look at their voting data, John, I’m telling you, they get amendments performed even within the minority. They’ve ascended, too. I fought for them to get on the best committees. And so they have simply excelled in every thing. All of them are strategic. Have a look at all of the amendments [Michigan Representative] Rashida Tlaib will get in on water and on clear air and on every thing. So, you understand, all of them are unbelievably nice legislators and haven’t given up their progressive values. They know how you can get the job performed. I’m pleased with them. And sure, I’m the OG, and I find it irresistible.
JN: You’ve additionally labored intently with Pramila Jayapal, the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, a gaggle you as soon as chaired.
BL: I simply should say, she’s taken the Progressive Caucus to the following degree. It’s extra organized. We put the duty forces collectively. I chair the International Peace and Safety Process Drive.
JN: You additionally cochair a caucus that seeks to chop the Pentagon finances with Wisconsin Consultant Mark Pocan.
BL: Mark has been my coconspirator on many points, particularly struggle and peace. We began the Defense Spending Reduction Caucus. And yearly, we attempt to minimize $100 billion. We acquired as much as about 95 Home votes for that one yr.
JN: One among your priorities has been to try to refocus American international coverage to be extra attentive to Africa and the Caribbean. And you’ve got labored to alter US coverage towards Cuba.
BL: What I haven’t been in a position to do, which I’m nonetheless going to work on outdoors of Congress, is ending the embargo towards Cuba. You understand, that’s on my listing nonetheless. I’ve talked to the administration; I’ve talked to the president…. Taking Cuba off the “state-sponsored terrorism” listing is only a must-do. Trump put them on earlier than he left workplace, for no motive. And now you see what’s taking place in Cuba [as a result of US policies]. I imply, it’s a disgrace and shame. This coverage towards Cuba has been ineffective, and the Cuban persons are struggling consequently. And I’ve been down there not less than 30 occasions since 1976, so ending this embargo towards Cuba is an enormous deal that’s nonetheless going to be on my agenda to work on.
JN: And Center East peace?
BL: Sure, it’s an extended listing. And I do know the Center East very effectively, the world wherein we stay. You understand, I’ve been to Gaza. I’ve been to Ramallah…. I do know these individuals. I do know the organizations. I helped get america again into UNRWA [the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East]. Now you see what they’re doing with UNRWA and UNESCO [the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization]. It’s terrible.
JN: One among your priorities as the highest Democrat on the Overseas Operations Subcommittee of the Appropriations Committee has been to position a a lot better emphasis on diplomacy.
BL: And to forestall protection from having to set off the usage of weapons and the army. [On the Foreign Operations Subcommittee], my finances was most likely $61 billion, $62 billion. On the similar time, protection was about $840 billion. So, a part of what I attempted to do was get some rebalancing… between improvement, diplomacy, and protection. As a result of these are supposedly the three legs of our international coverage and our nationwide safety coverage… So, that’s one factor I would like hopefully for individuals to recollect: that I fought like hell to get a rebalancing of our priorities because it pertains to nationwide safety and to place more cash into stopping wars and into asserting management on the planet by placing extra into serving to improvement and diplomacy and commerce.
JN: You and I’ve talked many occasions through the years about the truth that Shirley Chisholm instructed you that you simply needed to become involved in politics in case you had been going to make a distinction. Taking a look at that dialog greater than 50 years later, was she proper?
BL: She was completely proper. She instructed me that it’s important to become involved. However she additionally instructed me that you would be able to’t get on the within and go alongside to get alongside—you’ve acquired to shake issues up. And she or he’d say these guidelines weren’t made for you or me, so that you’ve acquired to disrupt and dismantle and construct one thing that’s equitable and simply and proper.
The challenges that she confronted, the challenges [I have faced], and what Kamala has confronted, they’re lots of the similar challenges. However Shirley Chisholm paved the best way for me to be Barbara Lee, and paved the best way for Kamala to be Kamala Harris, to get to the place we’re. And, you understand, one of many issues I’m engaged on now, John, I hope we get this performed, is a Congressional Gold Medal for Shirley Chisholm. I’ve acquired about 70 Republicans signed on, so we’ve acquired sufficient to get to the ground. And Senator Laphonza Butler’s nearly acquired sufficient Republicans within the Senate. I’m hoping after we get again [to Washington] in November, I’ll be capable to get it handed—as a result of Shirley Chisholm’s one hundredth birthday is November 30. I would like to have the ability to say “Joyful birthday” with this Congressional Gold Medal.
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